 INTERVIEW
BY PERSPEKTIVE WITH CECIL TOUCHON REGARDING POST-DOGMATISM
perspektive |
issue 43 | 2002
The following
is a published interview
conducted via email. This was published in the German print journal
PERSPEKTIVE
Link to the original
page: http://avantgarde.netzliteratur.net/index.php?bereich=postdogma&aid=127&textid=306&sprache=e&interview=true
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postdogmatists >- - -
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/->/ "the
official avant garde. accept
no substitutes" // das interview f?r die postdogmatisten: cecil
touchon
Are we finished
with manifesto
writing?
/ interview /
[question-1//perspektive]
The
post-dogmatist manifestos seem
to represent a more "postmodern" practice in manifestation: a tweening
between hypertrophy and meta-discourse. On the one hand there is no
dogma
for postdogmatists and on the other hand every dogma which is not
dogmatist
should be persecuted. that is why dogma control and dogma catcher are
being
set up in the manifestos. What is the use of setting the "dogma as
dogma"
and otherwise promote the uselessness of a dogma?
[question-1//response]=[postdogmatism
- cecil touchon]
Some of this is
explained in 'Dogmatism
Clarified' (attached). I don't know if you have read that yet. Anyway,
it is hard to say how strongly the conception of Post-Modernism was
involved
in our original conversations which led to these manifestos and credos.
We were reacting against something in a certain way and I think that
was
the intellectual relativism that was present at the time that we felt
was
a false direction within the post-modern activity going on. We all
shared
a consensus that there is an underlying reality that is true and always
remains true and that all human dogmas are an attempt to simulate that
truth in human terms through dogmas and dogma structures. There is a
kind
of post modern implication in the pursuit of post dogmatism in that
there
is a recognition of tremendous human diversity in terms of belief,
action,
creativity, cultural influences, personal history, etc. and so there is
a call for a personal use of meta-discourse, to apply a discipline of
being
self reflexive. In this sense, this playing with the meta-discourse of
one's own way of being aimed at stripping away extraneous influences
and
beliefs supported by identification of one's self via the beliefs one
holds,
leads eventually to an exhuming of one's more original nature. This
sort
of thing is practiced by Buddhists, Taoists and Sufis for example and
by
anyone mystically inclined in any culture or religion.
So Dogmatism –
the first movement
which we intended to start but which lasted only twenty minutes – was
succeeded
by post-dogmatism for the reason that we came to the realization that
Dogmatism
should be dedicated to this recognition of a primary and preexistent
Reality
which always resides in a state of omnipotent potentiality like a
mighty
oak tree resides within the acorn and that this is the touchstone
against
which all human dogma must be tested in terms of being of value.
A touchstone,
of course, originally
means a hard stone like basalt against which gold and silver are rubbed
and the consequent streaking proves their genuineness. Dogmatism, which
is the recognition of this preexistent reality or 'The One True Dogma',
points to this need of a touchstone and at the same time leads to the
recognition
that dogmas in general are surrogates which we tend to come to treat as
if they were this more primary reality. So naturally, when they break
down,
as they always will, there is a sense of loss and meaninglessness.
>From a
post-dogmatist view, the
breakdown of the cultural belief structures that made post modernism
take
up a relativist and nihilistic attitude is a false and premature stance
which cannot and will not lead anywhere other than to a depressing,
meaningless,
pessimistic viewpoint. Another strategy, which we champion, is to see
this
breakdown as a liberating experiencewhich offers the possibility of
seeing
beyond these beliefs – any beliefs – into the more primal reality which
is always at the back of things, which always is the cause behind the
cause,
as a current Sufi master; Pir
Vilayat
Inayat Khan would say, "That which transpires behind that which
appears.”
So, I would
hope that the logic becomes
clear that, given a choice between the pursuit of meaninglessness and,
on the other hand, an experience with this more primal reality, 'the
Bride
stripped bare' if you will, the pursuit of the latter holds more
possibilities
than the former in terms of building toward a better future on an
indiviual
and perhaps a cultural level. Additionally, having once had an
experience
of this Primal Reality the thought of then constructing and maintaining
dogmas seems completely foolish and futile and counter productive
except
for the recognized fact
that, as humans
"Our task is only
to seek to forget our truest self, and once forgotten, spend years
trying
to get back in touch with it.” (Post-Dogmatist Credo)
There is,
therefore in Post-Dogmatism,
not so much of a disdain for dogmas in general as a devaluing of them
and
especially a devaluing of the activity of grooming, maintaining and
identifying
with dogmas. Since our dogma is the Primal Source it is unleashed, free
to roam, and we claim no ownership of it due to the given that it
preexists.
"Our Dogma is like a lion that roams the forest freely; who has no
predator
or equal."
I think it is
fair to say that without
this spiritual element to galvanize one's artistic activity, the post
modern
track will tend to lead toward the construction of dogmas built from
bit
and pieces of other dogmas until there is seemingly a complete
degradation
of inquiry. Cleverness without wisdom. I think the rise in
fundamentalism
around the world in recent years is a direct emotional response to this
perceived threat in the religious sphere known as 'new age' but,
obviously,
retrograde movement is not an answer either.
<>The idea; 'Art
as Dogma - Dogma as
Art - Dogma as Dogma´ refers to the problem that any art making
is
expressive of some dogma, some belief of some sort and that we need to
strive to say nothing whatsoever of our own but let what needs to be
said
say itself in our work. As in the quote below suggests…
"An
artist, a fine-artist or free-artist,
An artist Has always nothing to say, And he must say this over and over
again. Especially in his work What else is there to say?” Ad Reinhardt
[question-2//perspektive]
in the sense of
bourdieu we could
summarize that the use of manifestos in avant garde groups is a
possibilty
to maintain a position in the/a art/society field. if the group gains
more
reputation in the field. they loose interest in making manifestos. the
postdogmatists offer a permutational version of their manifestos and
they
date around the late 80s. are the postdogmatists finished with
manifestos
or is there nothing left to loose on the way to art heaven? :-)
[question-2//response]=[postdogmatism
- cecil touchon]
Pierre
Bourdieu? I am sorry but I
don't know any thing about him or his work and have never read anything
by him that I am aware of so you will need to explain your reference if
you don't mind. Assuming that I can make out your meaning without the
illumination
of that reference I will say that our manifesto and credo were written
for our own use and yes, perhaps to use as a way for us to define the
nature
of our quest within our activities and in relation to other activities
going on around us.
Developing a
reputation, as you mention,
is not really part of our program except on an individual by individual
basis, not really as a group. Reputations don't mean much I don't
think.
They are like dogmas – a surrogate identity in the minds of other
people.
Reputations are so difficult to shape and maintain and protect that I
think
it is hardly
worth the effort to
attempt to develop
one.
Are we finished
with manifesto writing?
A manifesto is a statement of purpose. So should any of the member's
purposes
change or new purposes arise then, of course, each member is welcome to
develop more manifestos and credos and any other statements. The Group
itself is a very, very loose association. Most of the members do not
directly
know each other as the Group is mainly intended for individuals who
don't
really like groups and generally don't wish to associate themselves
with
a group. So the Group at large is almost completely unknown to itself
so
manifestos and credos and all sorts of other instruments quite possibly
are being developed and the Group itself may be unaware of it. Since
most
of the members will be attracted to the Group on a spiritual level, we
pretty much depend on an assumed state of synchronism and whatever
local
development that happens around the world in the individual districts.
We have yet to even organize a group exhibition other that those
organized
among the members of the Collage email group which, in theory, are all
post dogmatists, but many may not be since the discussion is
pretty much always kept
on the subject
of collage.
<>After the
original ones were written,
like you say, in the late 80's, the few of us at the beginning followed
the maxim of "Shut up and paint!” which I believe was devised by Mr.
Padraige
O'Cellas as I recall. He is a brilliant post-dogmatist from whom I have
learned a great deal. 'Shut up and paint', as I have come to understand
it basically means that you have to quit intellectualizing about
everything
and actually engage and immerse yourself in direct experience. Direct
experience
of life is the thing and if you're a painter then painting is the main
thing, the main activity that you are engaging yourself in, not just
talking
about it, intellectualizing it. If it is something else that you do, then shut up and just
do that thing. So, it follows that there would not be a lot of
additional
writing except from those who love to write things and there are those
among us who do such as Great Skull Zero (Lanny Quarles) and of course
I like to write
things when I can find the time.
[question-3//perspektive]
A Dogmatist
should be in all well
balanced, truthfull and live in the present. But Dogmatism lasted as a
movement only for 20 minutes until the the age of Post-Dogmatism was
proclaimed. What are then, the essentials for a post-dogmatist and is a
conversion from Dogmatism to Post-Dogmatism possible? Does Post
Dogmatism treat the succession-struggles
in avant garde history with irony?
[question-3//response]=[postdogmatism
- cecil touchon]
<>An accomplished
Dogmatist is, in
essence, a deeply enlightened being who has freed himself from identity
with anything other than the Primary Reality and this is the ideal that
the post-dogmatist strives to unfurl from within through a gradual
liberation
from falsely identifying with dogmas (should he decide to strive in
this
direction). If you look back in the history of the world there are
countless
enlightened beings. All of these we call post dogmatists. They share in
common a witnessing of Primal Reality and this changes everything for
them.
It is a landmark moment, an awakening, a rebirth. And while we all
share
in the benefit of their experience through their art or music or poetry
or teachings, it is within the reach of anyone anywhere to uncover this
experience. This
is the experience of Dogmatism
as we define it: the One True Dogma. The central realization that leads
from Dogmatism to Post-Dogmatism is stated in DOGMATISM CLARIFIED:
"Dogmatism itself is the
expression
of the undiluted and pure truth of Reality as it exists in the Absolute
Present and it cannot, by its very nature, ever be expressed in its
totality
within the realm of human terms....The founding fathers of
Post-Dogmatism...
deemed it humanly impossible to, through effort, emulate the qualities
required to be a Dogmatist... (and that) it would
be an act of unmitigated gall to call one's self a Dogmatist."
You
ask: is a conversion from dogmatism
to post-dogmatism possible? As you might guess, based on the above
quotation,
it is not only possible, it is unavoidable. In terms of how post dogmatist
thought
might view previous art movements and avant garde groups, yes there is
a sense of irony in it so far as a recognition of the never ending
cycle
works....
"Every art movement, for
example, that has arisen in this century
was empowered by a given web of dogma that supplanted a previous one
through
attacking it's credibility. How far reaching each new movement became
was
directly incurred through the degree of faith and trust the artists
brought
to it thereby giving it credibility. As soon as this faith began to
waiver,
the movement's credibility was called into question causing it to lose
currency. Hence, the rise of the next movement, ad infinitum. This
pattern of inception, growth
and collapses shows how spontaneously and ingeniously human beings use
dogmas to discriminate between and ultimately to alter the various
aspects
of reality, enhancing some and ignoring others, determined directly by
the dogma employed." (Dogmatism Clarified)
[question-4//perspektive]
For the Post
Dogmatist avant garde
as art movement is discarded but could be reoriented to a more general
movement "inward and upward by the way of trans migration" (cecil
touchon)
through states. What is the meaning of "trans migration" and how could
that
be a movement?
[question-4//response]=[postdogmatism
- cecil touchon]
Again, I need
to emphasize that Post-Dogmatism
has, at its very roots, a recognition of a spiritual reality within
which
our everyday lives are immersed. So, it follows that a Post-Dogmatist
might
choose to use his artistic process to develop deep concentration and
then
through self-disciplined effort unfold a path toward higher and more
subtle
states of consciousness where the field of one's work becomes a
circumstance
for exploring the inner landscape of one's own heart. There are many
examples
of these kind of artists in the last 100 years such as Malevich,
Kandinsky,
Mondrian, Miro being a few well known examples. This not only can be an
artistic movement but is forever the perennial movement behind all
movements
of any significance. Where there is difficulty in recognizing this
'movement' is in the fact that each
individual artist has his own time to unfold and develop and so, most
artists
who occupy themselves with this kind of inner work must rely on only a
very few meaningful contacts at any given time. But due to the fact
that
artists and Post-Dogmatists in general leave behind a rich legacy of
works
which convey the states of consciousness that they have discovered and
passed through, we are all able to carry on trans temporal
relationships
with the artists of the past through how we listen and those of the future
through how we sexpress ourselves
as well as any with whom we are fortunate to come in contact with
during
our lives. I don't have it with me but Robert Henry, for one, discusses
something very similar in his; The Art Spirit.
The use of the
internet, by the
way, increases the ability of artists to establish contact with many of
their contemporaries as never before. We are able to become aware of
recent histories
that traditionally would have remained in obscurity - possibly for
decades
- until someone decided to publish a book.
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